Alright, this is it. in San Diego and today is May 15, 2024 and we’re going to begin a special broadcast in just a few minutes and it’s all about Scandinavia and corporate policy and people policy and executive thinking and some things.
about the transforming that’s going on within the workforce, workplace, and particularly about how companies look at cross -border employment,
virtual, as well as in office or hybrid. We have an interesting group coming on to discuss this.
We’re going to launch a live conference workshop in Malmo, Sweden, which is very closely logistically to Copenhagen in Denmark.
So we’re calling it the Scandinavian Global HR Business Conference. It’s all about talent development, not only current but future. In -office and cross -border,
remote, hybrid, all these different words. So stay tuned. This is the first of a series, a monthly series, which means May 15 today,
mid -June, July, August, and September, early September, because the live event… in Malmo, Sweden will be in very late September.
And then we will continue the TV broadcast global about Scandinavia happenings following the live event.
That you take care and I hope to see you in every monthly show. and thank you. Asher is to you.
So that’s included as well. So just updating all of that, which I enjoy doing. This is impromptu talk before the show starts. So I thought I’d push the button and because the rapport is so terrific.
I wanted the world to see this. Welcome, Heather. Hello. Hi, everybody. Okay, this is Heather DeCruz Cornier. I butchered that,
didn’t I? No, not at all. Not at all. But she’s in London. Ken is in Southern California. And Stephen Howard,
who I think you’ve met before, is floating around. And so talk to Ken Lloyd has a long time ago,
15 years ago, public, was it 15 years ago? Yeah. Oh my god. What was the title of that? It was performance appraisals and phrases for dummies.
It’s part of a dummies series. I see. Okay. And now you’re rewriting it for the AI world or for who? No, just for the world. A lot has happened in terms of appraisals.
It’s far more… they’re far more forward focused, far more interested in coaching and development and certainly the aspect of what’s called continuous feedback, more regular contact with employees and working with them and focus on their development growth careers and that kind of a thing,
as opposed to just evaluating employees. It’s much more than that now. Great. We’re welcoming Gary Sanger from the LA area. Good morning everybody, good evening,
good afternoon. Gary is a member of the Global Press Club and very active on Global TV and is recognized by top corporate C -suite as a preeminent retained executive search consultant.
Gary, why not introduce yourself? quickly. Thank you good morning nice to be here I think I’ve seen you before Ken I’m sure good to see you and Stephen you as well Heather nice to meet you.
Yeah I’ve met you twice already Gary obviously I didn’t make a very favorite. My memory is great just short I’m so sorry nice to see you. Don’t worry so I remember you I definitely remember you so you’re very memorable you’re very memorable memorable character.
Well, thank you. Nice to see you. Sounds like we have a song building here. We do, and it’s a sad one toward me. Good morning.
Wonderful to be here. Okay. We’re going to have a few others joining us, hopefully. They said they would come. So, Heather, what did you do today in London? I’ve been working today with my clients.
So I think you all know by now that I’m, I’m an advocate for peace of mind on the move as we move all our wonderful talent around the world with a special focus on evidence -based psychology and dual careers.
But I’m interested in lots of other things. Ken, I love what you said about appraisals. You know, it’s funny how we manage work and feedback and it should be through a word of praise.
it isn’t. If you actually look, you said yourself it’s about evaluation. So let’s, you know, let’s use some praise. Let’s talk about performance management in a much more positive way that’s more equitable and that focuses on the psychological contract needs of both employer and employee as well.
But today I worked with a wonderful client who has recently relocated to the UK from the UK. can imagine the situation that she’s left behind her.
And so when we work with transferes nowadays, post pandemic, we are seeing this huge turbulence, social turbulence, not just economic and political turbulence and geopolitical uncertainty.
So we have families that are moving away from war -torn areas. I also have another climate. who’s Ukrainian and is married to a Russian and the Russian was deployed over here.
Now you can imagine the situation of those dynamics in that relationship. And as a coach, they’re looking for work, they’re looking to acclimate, they’re looking for an adjustment that is positive and successful with a transferee that’s productive against this backdrop.
that we’re seeing escalate in so many different areas of disruption and uncertainty. But there’s a real positive news in that my lovely client who I’m working with has not reached all of the eligibility criteria to get a work visa,
even though she’s highly qualified, she’s an occupational therapist, but we’ve potentially found a sponsor that will give her the visa even though she doesn’t reach the requirements because the industry at the moment for occupational therapists is there’s so much demand,
especially in nursery schools, that we’ve managed to secure this. So we did some rehearsal preps of what’s the etiquette here in the UK in comparison to what she’s used to.
So and we’ve got a big presentation tomorrow, I’m rooting for her, and I can’t give too much away. But yeah, that’s the reality of the work that I do on the ground with these wonderful families.
That’s the reality of what I’m doing. So keeps things real. And it just makes a difference to how I feel about the job,
my role, and the difference that I can make. in whether it’s a positive adjustment or whether there could be potentially an early repatriation because of all the turmoil that these families are experiencing.
So yeah, it’s just a little bit about what I’ve done today. – Well, thank you for that briefing. Good,
if this was planned better, I don’t know. So Gary Sanger, tell us about your work today, well, yesterday, and what you got planned the rest of today.
And I wanted to ask you just about what you just heard, culture, cross -culture, and mental health, and succession planning, and more,
Gary. You know, Heather, I’m stunned. with the reality of these clients of yours. You know, when we sit here, fat,
dumb, and happy, if you will, in a safe environment, you know, as long as you don’t go into the bad areas of the big cities in the U .S., because it’s like a war there as well. But I’m just stunned when you think about the safety,
the families, the moms, the kids, the dads, and the kids. time war and this terrible war in Ukraine, you know, from all sides in Israel,
and you’ve got families in the midst of that trying to keep their kids in school or keep them safe or keep them better, what have you. It’s hard for me to get back to the reality of what today is here.
Ed, the question about what’s on my desk for today. I have two wonderful things on my desk for today. I have been asked and I’ve been offered and I haven’t accepted yet to take a consulting role as an advisor into a company that has four to five billion dollars with a B of assets.
And so they’re trying to make a real company out of this. and on the confidentiality side of it, I won’t elaborate, but in this particular organization,
the owner who has 76 % of this enterprise, you know, and today, tomorrow and a month from now, it could be a few employees to hundreds of employees to thousands.
If in fact this gets gets funded so. planning in that setting, and I have the opportunity to talk to this owner, CEO, today, a little later here this morning,
what is the culture of that organization going to be? What is it that they want to have as a fingerprint on who they hire? So I would think the lens that should be used could be used as a fingerprint.
person or their president or CFO or whomever else we might hire in the executive role, what is that lens and make some constancy to it? So the succession plan piece here,
you know, as those first couple of levels of funding happen, you know, then in fact, you’ll have real execs, you know, versus a lot of the part timers than a lot of the consultants in other…
are trying to hold it together. Secondly, we have a pitch for a 15 -20 million dollar company for the owner who wants to consider retaining us to hire the next CEO,
grow it, and then have an exit in three to five years. So we are planning what options he might have because he’s been doing this for 50 years.
What should that executive look like? Headline, we’re a retained executive search firm, should have said that up front. So we are on a confidential retained exclusive basis work for companies.
So in this CEO for this $15 – $20 million company here in Southern California, what should be the quantitative musts, quantitative musts, and what should be the quantitative musts, and what should be the quantitative musts, and what should be the quantitative musts, and what should be happen,
have an exit? You know, those are tough decisions. So that’s what’s on my desk. I am very excited about those two things that they were on my desk every day. My goodness, you know,
I Yeah, I would feel Even more blessed Even Howard you’re an expert recognized expert in leadership the leadership development,
but also being doing it and Your recent publication Humani H. U. M. O. N. Y. Is what is a I’m going to just paraphrase a blend of harmony and human resources,
human approach in companies. What you just heard between Heather and Gary and Dr. Ken Lloyd is all about leadership,
isn’t it? Absolutely. Without a doubt. I’ll start with Heather first, because it’s so impactful. But, and unfortunately, in Heather this month,
an opportunity for you, it’s got to be an opportunity for somebody, you know, there’s a need in the world right now for counseling people who are leaving their home countries, home war or countries,
and how to cope with that and how to deal with the families that they leave behind and both professionally and personally. And so I think, I think some leaders need to be trained in this or at least get in.
in it. You know, it kind of reminds me a few years ago before the pandemic when we started talking to leaders about how to openly discuss burnout and mental well -being in the workplace.
And leaders were uncomfortable with it. I mean, many people I coach made phrases along the lines of, I’m not a psychologist. I can’t help them. I can’t help my employees out. I can’t. But I said, well, all you have to do is talk to them and just open up and then them direction towards where the resources might be internally or externally.
So I think now you could almost do the same thing which I think a lot of employers are going to have to have some open conversations with their staff about what’s like to leave a family behind or leave relatives behind if you take your immediate family with you.
Going to Gary’s comments it’s just why would a challenge Gary, what an opportunity with that organization to define the leadership structure going forward. I would only counsel that it’s a two -part equation and you’re taking the first part of it.
The second part is, how are they going to develop the second tier leader? So you mentioned succession planning, that’s one aspect of it, but it’s really, you know, so many people get brought into organizations as leaders or promoted into leadership.
and they’re basically thrown at the end of the pool and say sink or swim. And so I think, you know, for you, Gary, it’s like, how do you take that first step successfully?
And then at the same time, implement a strategy for how these leaders are going to hire the second tier and third tiers and develop those second and third tier.
So wow, that’s better than a cup of coffee this morning. thank you but no i do have mine don’t worry i you can’t see it there it is i i already drank my pot but i mean not pot drink i wonder what a show would be like on us we’re not going to do that so i wanted to say that the written purpose for this broadcast was,
and will be, to announce Scandinavia as a destination and a resource going forward. In late September, I will produce a live event in Malmo,
Sweden, which is very close by Copenhagen, Denmark. and the metropolitan area is huge and extremely industrialized.
And my local partner is a lady who was a senior HR leader for one of the largest employers in that town who recently retired,
set up her own shop as a consultant and would you know, she’s been rehired back by the old employer to do some work on a contract basis.
And then she has also other gigs that she’s working on. Anyway, she’s my host partner. And she’s very well connected in that community.
And so together we’re going to build this live workshop. One of the reasons why Ava, is her name, has jumped on this is because some of her clients are– although their local,
or the division, is local in Malmo, Copenhagen area– they’re seemingly all trying to find talent across borders, not just in Denmark,
but in Norway. or Ukraine or wherever, and they don’t know how to do all that as adeptly as US or UK people.
And so they want me to bring in speakers virtually or in person will be better because she and I are going to be inviting locals to come. We’ve already begun that process and have secured.
Hitachi, I’m probably going to say this wrong, Hitachi Energy, which is a major subsidiary. And we’re working on several others with household names.
So more about that later. The purpose of this broadcast was to announce this, and I have. And to have one or two people from Scandinavia join this broadcast,
and they said they would, but they’re not on it yet, so I’m going to take their words and just say that once a month, starting now, and again in about a month,
and again in July, and again in August, we’re going to do a broadcast talking about who is going to be speaking live or virtual. in that late September event in Malmo,
Sweden. And I will be live, and my Joanne will be with me. And you’re all invited, of course, one way or another.
So that’s the stated purpose. However, we started off today talking not about Scandinavia, but about what each of us are doing today today.
what is ongoing. So Heather spoke live in, and we first met, for the first time in person, we met previously on the show in the London event this past April 23 that was hosted by the bank HSBC inside their headquarters in London.
And of course, I was honored to have that capability. And this was a third as it the third edition sponsored hosted by HSBC,
and they invited me to do number four in late September. And so when we do London, we will then get on a plane and go to Malmo, Sweden, and do that.
And we may go beyond into another event following that, not sure yet what my energy level will be. or the connectivity, but we’ll try to do that.
So I wanted to ask Dr. Ken Lloyd for the benefit of the new audience that we have out there in the world and in studio about the process,
the personal care and attention you’re giving to the audience. of a 15 -year -old book. Dummies for what? Performance appraisals for demos.
Here I am, stumbling over that. Okay, so yesterday on the program we had an AI expert and we were talking about,
well, I raised the point, should we be aware? Should we be afraid? Will AI create an employee bloodbath? What’s the leadership thinking?
And so our expert was Melissa, who’s a recognized AI genius, employed for a long time with Deloitte,
and she’s the top go -to resource in the Deloitte Global Organization. and she was our special expert.
Ken why don’t you talk what your take was having met her for the first time? Well yeah Ed asked me is AI writing your book? I said no and basically what I had said is I would not want that to happen.
I am responsible for what I write and there are personal aspects to my own writing and style and all that really wouldn’t be fair. And if there is an issue or anything, I want to be the one who made the mistake and will take care of it.
At the same time, what about the role of AI in the appraisal process? And my stance on that is that there certainly is a place for it.
If you’re going to write an Evaluate 7 of employee and you’re staring at a blank page, your AI functions and features you can use. ChatGPT, for example, can help.
But my main point, and frankly, she agreed, is that, look, AI is a great coach. It can provide you a good first draft. But beyond that,
you are still responsible for it and nothing can truly, at this point in the process, replace the human element. So you need some help getting it started. Yeah, AI can certainly be there.
But on the other side of it, not only will you not get the real you into your evaluation, employees sense when they’re being evaluated through an AI process and they don’t like it.
They feel it’s cold and personal, inattentive to really who they are as individuals. So, yeah, they’re… are AI functions for it. There are performance management systems that use AI that can help tracking employee performance and setting up meetings and prompting people to go.
And all that is great. When it comes down to the real interpersonal aspect of it, AI at this point is a great tool. It can be a coach and a helper, but it should not be the actual direct provider of that kind of feedback or feedback.
forward as it’s now called, or as it’s also looked at. AI, right. And she was really just personal about it and very,
you know, it was comforting to hear from this genius techie speaking and playing English and very personally.
as well. So Heather, are you using AI in your dual career research? I almost left the meeting instead of unmuting myself.
Oh, that would be another new low. No, I considered using AI because chat genius. came out. I think it was August last year.
I had just finished the research piece of mind on the move. And to be honest, I wished I’d known more about AI to help me with the thematic analysis because it was really,
really complicated. I know Ed at the HSBC event, I did admit that I still used Excel for my categorization encoding,
which is what I learned. learned, you know, a very long time ago when I was doing my master’s degree. However, again, there are pros and cons with AI and because I was in Europe and all of my participants were around GLO,
I opted as the researcher and the data controller to use GDPR for my confidentiality, my anonymity. Ken’s nodding his head. I mean, you know, if you’re conducting… research,
you know, you have to have all of these other things in place, the safeguarding elements, the consent, informed consent. And when you’re working around the world, gathering insights that for us were very personal,
not just statistical numbers, we had to have a data controller function that was located outside of America. That was what REA was more comfortable with. It was so difficult.
way and I’m also governed by the Code of Conduct for the British Psychological Society, which is the same as the APA in the States. And there are certain rules governing what you do with data,
how you process data, how long you keep the data, even as a coach, I’m guided by these principles. So in order for me to use AI and upload all of my raw data onto a platform that is not yet proven,
I felt extremely uncomfortable with that, I have to say as a researcher. And I would have had to have then gone to each of my participants and potentially have encountered the fact that they withdraw from the study.
So for me, what was the guiding principle was how important the data was. and how I could preserve the integrity of the data. And by doing that,
it was kept on a completely separate platform for confidentiality used in Excel spreadsheets for the coding and then removed from that once the coding was finished. So it wasn’t uploaded to a cloud,
which is essentially what I would have had to have done. And then you’re looking at costs for individual cloud -based solutions. And I’m a one -person… solopreneur. I had to use and protect the integrity of the data with the tools that I had at my fingertips.
Hence why I used the non -AI methodology and I automated as much as I could, writing, doing coding. And then of course the interpretation and the analysis which would have been so much easier using AI but then I would have had to have programmed it with all of the evidence -based psychological models that I had to use to find the themes because there was no hypothesis.
So when you start looking at it from that point of view from qualitative research, there were pros and cons and after discussing it with the client, we decided to opt for the security and the integrity of the data.
However, if I were to be on another research project, working with… a team, say a big team, I would say I would love the opportunity of using AI and using some form of specific software model that would actually process the analysis because it is extremely time intensive and laborious.
So I feel that there are very good opportunities there, but we need standards. We need standards of integrity and it’s not regulated. It’s certainly not regulated enough for me in the field that I work.
in. That’s how I feel currently. Thank you very much. Heather, sorry for the interruption. What was the headline on this first research project? I beg your pardon.
What was the headline? What was the thesis on your research? The peace of mind on the move. That was it. It was the peace of mind on the move because I know you were in the previous session where I presented…
just to talk about the thick data and the big data approach, the qualitative approach that I took, so it was 34 participants around the globe, four different continents and across four generations,
but instead of using the rinse, the wash rinse repeat model of sending out a survey with a five point lick at scale, which I know is great and I’m not at all devaluing that,
but I just wanted to find insights. that add more of an emotional impact and give a voice to these people that are working against the backdrop of VUCA and who are in an extremely disruptive and uncertain geopolitical time since post pandemic and because of that I really wanted to use semi -structured questions and not just force a scale where they had to tick a box so that I can have my statistics at the end.
with the metrics. So it was a bit of a risk. And I did use big data in there to find the themes, but using the voice aspect and gathering the different stories from around the world,
we discovered the impact of human connection, which essentially is having more people focused HR policies, such as what Ken is talking about, such as what you’re talking about, so that everything becomes more human centric.
And Steve of course, with his heumony, I think about heumony. And I think, really, that was the backdrop for me designing the project. So, yeah.
Thank you. Thank you very much. We’re joined by Annette Durnick from Cologne, Germany. Love and peace and companies. Welcome again.
Thank you very much. It’s a pleasure to be here again. Okay, so do you know Stephen Howard and Dr. Ken Lloyd? Yes. And Heather and Gary Sanger.
Yeah, so Annette, you’ve been really busy the past month or so. And so welcome back to the show. And we’re talking about leadership stuff and things related.
very quickly, I’m using this program to announce the in -person meeting that I’ll be doing in Malmo, Sweden in late September,
and the idea that I’ll be doing a monthly broadcast focusing in on Scandinavia companies and people and stuff, and I certainly welcome you going forward.
Thank you. me ask you about leadership in a company, from your view, Germany view, and international view,
about, it seems so obvious to me, being a PR guy, that it’s all about communications within the company, and yet the CEO may be a lousy speaker,
or doesn’t listen to his PR counsel or her counsel. And so the concept I’m going to stop talking and let you talk is about why is it so important for peace and love within a company?
Nevermind direction? Yeah, so employees don’t leave the companies because they don’t like their job. They leave the company because they have the impression that they are not being appreciated by their leaders.
And so there are so many things that leaders can do very easily. So you already mentioned one thing and that’s really to listen, to be an active listener and not only to look at the person and say yes,
yes, yes and being somewhere else with the thoughts but to really listen what the other person wants to say. and to also be there when there’s something that needs to be solved and then to find a solution on a very good basis in a very good atmosphere and this really supports leaders to do that job in a much better way and yes to have another relationship with the employees.
It’s not that boss and employees that they have to be friends, but that they have a kind of understanding so that they value each other and the expertise of each other.
When I started working, it was that the boss was really the boss and the employee was the small employee. And this is now changing because the young people,
they really also want to respect it for what they know and what they bring into the company. And therefore it’s very important to have this communication on what I always call eye level.
– Eye level, Steven Harrod. Tell us about the new book you’re working on and how this relates to what Annette was just referring to. – Well, the new book is coming out next month.
It’s a co -author of it with a gentleman. who used to be a senior manager at the Boeing company. And it’s interesting, he’s Lebanese born and raised and then went to the United States around age 20 and has lived in the United States ever since.
So he’s been an expatriate in the United States. I’m born in America. I left the United States around age 21, 22. around age 22. 33 years living outside the United States.
So I have a global perspective as an American. He has an American perspective as an international person. So the book is called Partnering Successfully with American Firms.
And it’s aimed at the international audience. It’s not aimed at Americans. And to understand the American culture, but more importantly, the American business culture, which a lot of people don’t understand and how important it is.
One of the things that is very people focused, but one of the things I highlight and we highlight in the book is very often as Americans, we will travel to another country,
have our business meetings, do our negotiations, whatever we’re doing, and we might plan that for four days. But if it finishes in three days, as Americans, we’ll typically jump on a plane and go back home. For other countries they will,
they want to invite you, they want you to stay, learn their culture, learn about their country, learn about their history, but for Americans time is money. And also many Americans don’t want to be seen as saying being on a holiday,
taking that extra vacation day on company pay, on company time, so to speak, because it looks bad back in the home office. So if people have done or that so if an American group of Americans leave your leave your country after three days it’s not they’re not being rude but they’re local nationals particularly in places like say Saudi Arabia or Thailand or Mexico they will consider that rude like why don’t they why
don’t they want to stay so it’s helping bridge these communication gaps as Annette says it’s all about communication bridging these communication gaps between not just cultures, but different business cultures around the world.
So that’s, that’s the approach of the book. So it’s coming out officially on June the 9th, and on Amazon in Kendo and paperback format.
So thanks. Well, congratulations. And I welcome you back to the show with Ali when you’re ready. So Annette, like an obvious thing,
but why are CEOs having problems communicating to the employees? In my opinion, there are different reasons. The funny thing is that I’ve just finished my stream talking about the transactional analysis today.
Talking about that sometimes um, leaders let’s say in what is called in a parental mode and that they think that they are maybe kind of that they are behaving like the parents of the employee.
And so this mode can be a critical one being really critical with the employees and also maybe sometimes being angry with them or in the caring mode which means to be yes what can I do for you and I really just want you to be happy.
And that’s not what leadership is about. Leadership is really about acknowledging the person as he or she is, and really looking for a place in the team where he or she can do the best for all the team.
And that’s always about communication. And it’s also very important to… ask open what we call open questions. So these are the questions they start with what,
how, who, and so on. And to really listen to the answer that they get, and then really to get the idea how they can build a team.
So what I do very often is I compare with sports team teams. So if the coach of a sports team, if he doesn’t pay attention,
who is good in the offensive on the defensive and he places the players in the opposite part of the field, then the results won’t be good.
And the same is true for a company to really know what are the strengths of my employees. and to find the place where they can contribute the most and also have to most even fun working because when I have fun while working then the results are much better than when I’m working and I know that I only have to do it and there is really this regulation that I have to stick to it.
And that’s really complete different atmosphere and this really creates great results and a great atmosphere. – Steven? – Yeah, thanks, Ed. I was laughing because I had an article come out last week where I compare leadership to parenting and the article is called leadership being,
not leadership doing. And the analogy I referenced in there is when you’re a parent doing parenting, is like going to the sports events,
taking to school, picking them up, taking to parties, picking them up after a party, making their lunch for school. That’s all doing parenting, but being a parenting is all about caring and loving and teaching and mentoring and coaching.
That’s what being a parent is. Well, the same thing in leadership. Being a leader is all about mentoring and coaching and people developing and teaching. and listening. Doing leadership are things like,
you know, Ken’s example, the performance reviews. That’s doing leadership. You can do leadership and also be a leader at the same time. You know, doing leadership are things like assigning,
delegating, going to meetings. And so assuming people get focused on how am I doing leadership? And so the article that came out last week in a magazine is all about how do you be a leader rather than doing leadership?
So thanks Annette for setting me up. – Okay, Annette, how can CEOs contribute to a fruitful discussion if there are so many varied opinions in the company?
– Go ahead, sorry. – No, just go ahead Steven. – And okay, so let’s move on to the next slide. be open and not to be narrow -minded with their own thoughts.
But what you just said, Steven, to be a CEO and not to, let’s say, do the work of a CEO. Many CEOs think that it’s all about controlling or that it’s only about the turnovers and that they have to watch the numbers.
And the more important thing is really to relate to the people working in the company and the team. And if they really feel appreciated, then the CEO doesn’t have to bother any longer about the turnovers,
because all the employees they want to contribute. We as humans normally, we all want to contribute and we want to be of use for a company.
And so if we have the impression that we are working in an atmosphere of appreciation and trust, then we kind of give our best and if really wants the best for the client,
and this automatically increases the turnover, and then the CEO will meet his or her expectations in a much easier way than before.
Gary, this is about culture internally, isn’t it? Well, it can be, and I’m thinking of that CEO. The CEO really is the orchestrator of what we’re going to work with.
what we’re going to focus on, where we’re going to put our energy, where we’re going to put our efforts. I think of a call that I got late yesterday evening from a client.
He also happens to be a longtime friend and he called and said, sorry to ruin your evening, but I’ve really got a big issue with one of my executives. And he went into a lot of detail about what this executive was doing and was not doing.
And the perfect example, Annette, the idea that here you have a business issue with the board, with that organization,
and this organization is, you know, 600 million plus 1 ,500 people. 40 locations, et cetera,
so it’s not small. And here was the big issue that several of the executives were working on with the exception of this executive. This particular executive suddenly thought it was more important to worry about what his team was going to have in the way of a location,
build out facilities and, you know, get in. side of it. And here the company, the organization has this issue that they’re all trying to fix.
And this person’s worried about getting more and better digs. Now, I’m here to tell you that that upsets me. The F -bomb goes off in my head. And if you’re working on the wrong stuff,
the culture. I think the culture then says, look, we can openly talk with each other as in executives. We can remind you that,
you know, I believe this is the issue that we’re working on now. Do you have that same feeling? And we help each other rather than to feel threatened when you get into my sandbox and I get into yours.
So the idea of, thoughts going through my head. I go back to performance reviews. I’ve had the opportunity to be on a couple panels recently and it’s drawn mixed reviews in the fact that if you’re sitting there and you know your best employees in your company of a thousand,
you know your best ones. My suggestion is you go call your best ones and tell them you love them. in a business way, you think they’re fabulous, you appreciate their contributions, and we really love your support for what we’re getting done.
Now secondly, you go to those poor performers and tell them they suck. Now that’s harsh, that’s blunt, and you go to HR first and get your game plan put together,
but I think telling somebody they’re not measuring up, they’re not pulling their weight, they’re not getting the job done. Now, I know it’s different in Europe in terms of what contractually you have with employees,
but in my opinion, bluntness with somebody to say, “You’re disappointing me.” We’d either like you to fix it or we’d like you to leave. If you want some help to leave,
we’ll do that. If you want some help to… fix it, we’ll do that. So the performance review world, I mean, we have, when you have some great ones and you have some awful ones, you got average.
If you fix or get rid of the bad ones, the poor performers, I know it’s controversial to be that blunt. However, in my opinion, I mean, I have a sign here that one of my daughters gave me.
It says, some people just need a high five in the face with a chair. And so if you’re trying to get somebody’s attention, you tell them you’re disappointed.
You’re telling them that this just isn’t cutting it. Stephen, leadership. Yes. Gary’s right.
It’s all about leadership. I’m not as harsh as Gary and I don’t think he is in his heart either. It’s like me. I say things like no one wants to be managed.
And I say that just to get a point across, but yeah, some people do need to be managed. And as you know, we do have to have our managers had on sometimes as well as our leadership had on. My attitude is particularly about leadership and performance reviews and.
things of that nature is I would slightly change what Gary said I would I would approach it along the lines of you’re not living up to our standards you’re not living up to my expectations you’re probably not living up to your expectations what do you think we can do to fix that so and then as a leader I’m going to say okay because I’m involved in this so you know tell me what we need to do you’re you’re going
to execute it obviously but I’m going to be the to help you and mentor you and guide you. Now, you know, I have to also decide as a leader how much time I can spend doing that with a poor performer and not risk my results or not risk the business or not risk keeping my good performers motivated.
But to me, it’s a team game. It’s a team sport. And what I can do as a leader with that person to help them improve and how we’re going to measure progress and how we’re going to continue mentoring and coaching him,
I think is extremely critical as a leader, particularly in today’s world where the cost of employee, you know, I’m talking here about mid managers and supervisors and leaders and frontline workers,
the cost of replacing people is anywhere from 130 % to 160 % of their salary. So you have an $80 ,000 a year employee that you want to move out the door,
the cost of replacing that person could cost you up to $120 ,000. So I want to give it over to Ken, because Ken’s the expert on performance reviews, not me.
– Sure, well, thank you. Very, very interesting conversation. I certainly like the concept of being versus doing. When I was consulting with this, I was like, “What the hell is going on here?” look at job candidates and do some assessments,
they would ask two questions. Can the person do the job? Does the person have the experience, the skills, the training, the certification? Does the person know how to actually build an organization?
Then will the person do the job? Does the person have the energy, the drive, the empathy? If you want to do the job, You can do the job. You can do the job. You can do the job. You can do the job. You can do the job. You can do the job. have the,
if you will, the will -do side of it. In terms of employees who are not performing well, it’s a matter of not being fair. It’s not fair to them to be in a situation that’s a complete mismatch.
It’s not doing them any good. They’re probably taking it home and they’re struggling and suffering and not getting the satisfaction we like to see at work. It’s not fair to the company. Ultimately,
if it’s not going to work, what Gary is saying is absolutely right. From the, if you will, the performance appraisals standpoint there’s what’s now being used called continuous feedback. And that does not mean being a helicopter over your employees,
but meeting every week. or every other week to talk about how you’re doing, how is it going, how can I help you. This is in combination with informal feedback because our goal as managers is not just to get these poor performers out,
but first look, we’ve invested in them. They’re here. They do bring some value. What can we do as managers /educators /coaches to help them perform?
If it’s not going to happen, it’s not going to happen. Then you go on to a performance improvement plan, get it documented and do what you need to do. But by focusing on the individual and that match, how does this person really match up with the job?
Maybe we’ve got a great person in the wrong position or maybe the person is simply not getting the kind of guidance that is needed to get to a higher level. I remember Professor Echakadeezus.
Echakadesis, I believe at UCLA, had said two key components of effective leadership, bring it down to this, respect and trust. And that kind of resonates and to make sure we’re doing that in these leadership roles and then being guided by that.
And then if you have to take other steps, whether coaching or whether exiting, then you do it. But you can answer your questions. That’s how I treat it. with respect and trust? Have I done all that I can to help this employee be the best employee that he or she can be?
Sometimes it doesn’t happen, but I want that opportunity out there and to really, to give it a shot. And by golly, if it does, we got a really good employee. If we’ve taken an employee who is on the edge and walked them back and now they’re thriving,
that’s terrific. But I know in prior conversations with the group, if it’s not a good match, it’s also not the worst thing in the world for the employee to leave and get on to a better path,
a better career that suits their objectives and what they’re really like. So to make a long answer long, there you go. Stephen. I’ve just added that and it goes back to what I referenced earlier with Gary with his new challenge opportunity as a two -part process.
I think one of the problems in today’s business world is too many mental managers, supervisors, you know, on up to just below the VP level, depending on the size of organization,
have not been trained in how to give effective feedback. They’ve not been trained in how to coach people, how to mentor people. They’re very results oriented and focusing on the numbers and getting projects done.
And they have that message. hat on. They’ve not been trained how to be a people leader. So I often put the onus back on the organization too. If you’re having so many employees that you need to show the door to,
I would take a hard look inside the organization and say, what are we doing to make our managers, our leaders, not talking about executives, not talking about the C -suite, but that second and third level,
what are we doing to make them better people leaders? Because that will that will make us a sustainable organization. We can get sustainable success that way, instead of having so much churn.
Yes, Heather. I’m fascinated by this conversation, but I thought it would be really useful to share with you as a as an end user. When I was in corporate in Germany,
I worked for Coca -Cola and we were in Germany, so you had the German culture. you had a very, very strong American executive management culture,
so the president and the higher management level was always American in this German culture, and there really was a lot of clashing, I have to say. And my experience was that,
and this is going back over 20 years, I think it was the best experience of performance management that I’d ever experienced. And I think this is what encouraged me to go into HR and learn about organizational development and train actually as a psychologist.
And they sponsored me to do that. That was the beginnings for me. Now, what do I mean by that? What I can tell you is, is that I left Siemens. I worked for Siemens, which is one of the most institutionalized German companies successful,
but it had just merged with Nixdorf. So it’s… was Siemens Nixdorf. I had left working there to go to Coca -Cola because that’s where me and my husband, it was one of the first moves that we made together.
Now the transition from working in a German institution, Annette I know you can disresonate with you, working to this wonderful Coca -Cola entity that was just mind -blowing,
was phenomenal and what I saw was both sides of the equation and what was really positive about the performance management equation at Coca -Cola was that the emphasis,
this is over 20 years ago, the emphasis was on each individual to almost self -manage their own performance and that gave you or me a lot of autonomy to determine the outcome and we had continuous performance assessments every three…
months with our bosses then. I went to Atlanta. I was trained in their core training that they offered there at the time. It was absolutely phenomenal using different psychometrics.
But I think one of the key things that came out of it, and Stephen, I think this will really resonate with you, was the emphasis on informal leadership. We were told that even if we were in a executive row,
it didn’t matter what we were doing, you could be in a assistant, you could be anything, but you were responsible for your own informal leadership as a role model. And it was through that that there was a kind of meritocracy,
if you will, which was in complete contrast at the time with the German philosophy of business. So I think really, you know, reflecting on this and hearing all of your insights,
I really see how even then there were companies doing it right and there are people that thrive in that environment. I was one of them, but not everybody thrives in that environment.
There were some people that preferred the institutionalisation and not being in a meritocracy because they found that too stressful. So again, none of this is happening in a vacuum.
It’s all happening with outside factors and especially now post – with remote working, the new culture around that. I just feel that the the role of informal leadership,
we don’t even need to have the title to be a leader, we can all be role models and represent really positive leaders with our own mindful practice and I think you know I see a lot of that with Stephen even being people focused,
some of the best psychologists I’ve met. it’s not from the academics, why they’re good psychologists. Some of the teachers and coaches I’ve met, it’s not because of the qualifications and the fact that they can do the job.
It’s the engagement and the, I guess the informal leadership that they take with their own careers that they make these things happen. I know Gary, you’re an absolute,
you’re a trailblazer along those lines. And that’s why you’ve had your set. That’s one of the stories. I remember from one of the last sessions I was on with you, that this is the drive that empowers you.
But there may be the wrong culture around you for that to actually happen. So this isn’t a nod to Coca -Cola in any way. I had even suppressed some of my memories because it was so long ago.
But now looking back and reflect, I was there for six years and it really shaped a lot of my optimism in management. I really can say how positive it was the experience.
So yeah, I think leadership is the key. Blown away here. So I want to say that on June 5 as we come to a close here in the next few minutes.
On June 5, I’m going to be doing a special broadcast and thank you and that for signing up today. And. I, I don’t know,
I had an early coffee a couple of hours ago, and my mind was just focusing at that moment as I was reading something about coming back from a midlife crisis,
and then reestablishing yourself anew, like reborn. And And I think what we’re talking about is relating to that.
So I want to share and of course promote the next show. But so so in that what interested you to jump on that right away on signing up for this midlife crisis and coming back and going forward.
Yes. Um, so it is. also related to behavior. That’s good for me.
And in my opinion, I can only give to others how I treat myself. So for me, everything starts with myself.
And so it’s so important to be loving and kind with me. Thank you. I can be loving and kind with others and when I grew up and I can really relate what you said Heather,
it was more that I had to kind of obey the rules given by authority figures like parents, like bosses,
like teachers and so on and for me this has changed and it’s so important that I know that I’m responsible for me, and that I start with myself.
And that was really why I thought, yes, such a great topic, I would like to participate. – Well, thank you. So the show, the name of the show is To Life, exclamation point.
And so it really is based on me, because when I was 51, 51 I met Joanne and this is 27 years ago folks let me tell you so and I’m actually healthier and younger feeling and looking than I was back then and so life can go on even though there’s crisis points and I’m proof of that and another example in my personal journey is which was still going on by the way and When COVID hit it wiped out it crashed my live
conference business of 30 years and You know a lot of cash flow just stopped and so here we are as a result of that because my tech partner at the time,
Paul, who is no longer involved in this business, he and I had been doing radio talk shows, a company called World Talk Radio.
It wasn’t his, he worked there. He was chief engineer. And he says, “You got a good voice. You just got to learn how to be friendly with the microphone and the camera,
and you’ll do fine because you’ve got a lot of contacts.” And so he got me involved in Zoom and set up the original Zoom. I have some of those early broadcasts,
and you could tell they were very early. So I’d have like Charlie Chaplin and Moose. 1920 compared to Steven Spielberg today in movies, okay? It was that kind of a herky -jerky.
So now here I am with you guys and I’m learning so much from you. I’ve learned to stop talking most of the time and get out of your way and give you the microphone. And so my job has become really easy.
(laughs) And, fun. So I’ve decided to double down, triple down, and try to find a topic and an audience by broadcasting every day rather than once a week or twice a week.
And just go for it because although my health is great now, but, you know, who knows what’s going to happen next week. So…
I thank you and to life, you know, join us June 5th on the TV show. The Scandinavian show will go on,
as I mentioned, and I’ll be reintroducing you to my host partner Eva Clevis. She and I met on my show three years ago,
and just by the end of the day, Dr. Natalie who introduced us Annetta. Dr. Natalie is a psychologist, PhD and she is now in Hamburg.
I met her in Washington DC. She came to speak in person at a DC meeting I put on about five years ago.
and we’ve kept in touch and so Natalie introduced me to Annetta and some other people and one of those is Eva. She introduced me to Eva and now Eva is hosting me in a live meeting so it’s really been a ride and I just love it and I invite you all to join me in Malmo,
Sweden if not virtually. Ernst & Young is hosting a live conference that I’m doing in their global center in New York on May 29,
and this is the second in a series with Ernst & Young. Of course, they’re a very large organization, and the head of the Americas People Advisory Unit is my host for the second time.
And we have several corporate talent management and mobility executives all from the New York metro area coming on the show.
But it will not be broadcast. They do not want me to broadcast that. So we’re going to be doing a warmup show like this two times,
one this week and one on the 17th, not on the 17th, but also on the 22nd. I’ll send out those dates if you want to join us.
There will be people who will be at the Ernst & Young event on the programs. I’m doing it twice because some people can’t do it one day, but they can do it the other day.
I’m thinking that doing that not only builds a pathway towards the live event, but it creates more news and information and we all benefit from more conversation,
I believe. So I thank you very much for listening to me here and for being on the show. You’ll all get a copy of this in a couple of hours. Steven,
do you want to– Yeah, just because there was a tip I wanted to share with Ken and everyone else when we were earlier when we were talking about AI. And as a writer, I won’t use AI to write drafts.
But interestingly, I was writing something the other day, and I have a grammar checker that has AI built into it. And I had written a sentence somewhere long. the lines of you don’t have to leave your national culture behind to understand and be flexible with the American business culture.
And it said, the AI told me, there was a positive way of saying that, which was you can keep your national culture and be flexible with dealing with the American business culture.
I thought, wow, that was really great. ‘Cause I had written. it as a negative sentence and they said tonality, this is a way to make it positive. So there’s a way, so for feedback, for instance,
can I, you know, one thing people I think could do is if they wanted to write some phrases to practice what they want to give somebody in terms of feedback, you just let an AI check it and say, hey, here’s a way to turn that around to a more positive sentence than a negative sentence.
And so I just wanted to share that before we be closed off. You wrote it and you used it as kind of a coach and a guide, which is at this point in time, a great way to capitalize on the benefits of AI when you’re writing.
So I think it’s an excellent way to go. Yeah, it’s like having an editor in my case because like I said, I wouldn’t I wouldn’t like go to AI and say, you know, give me 20 paragraphs about dealing with the American business culture.
You know, I want my writing, as you said, to be mine, my tonality. But it was like having an editor online. And it said, well, it was my choice to accept their change or not accept their suggested change.
But I thought that was something that executives could use a way of using AI to help improve feedback, improve their communications. And in this case, in Gary’s case,
maybe what people are looking for in job descriptions or interview questions. or something like that. Anyway, I just want to share that with you that there is some utility to AI for those of us who are more in the creative field than the engineering field or other areas.
– I want to close this by saying, I just got a message from Dr. Natalie in Hamburg accepting a speaking role at the June 5 to life.
and so that is now she’s not tuning in here because she’s on an appointment somewhere but just it must have been out there in the wavelengths and so now I can say that the wow that’s going to be cool okay so I thank you again for doing this learning so much from you guys take care take care thank you everyone bye Bye.
Bye. Bye. Thank you.